Measles vaccine - non-mainstream perspective needed
Jaytee said:
What about the migrants? How do we know who’s vaccinated? All these people coming across the border who slip through without being processed, maybe that’s why we’re seeing an uptick in contagious diseases. This whole migration issue is a can of worms.
I'm not aware of any outbreaks being traced to migrants, but this is an example of why it's a good idea for health care providers not to ask about immigration status.
PVW said:
I'm not aware of any outbreaks being traced to migrants, but this is an example of why it's a good idea for health care providers not to ask about immigration status.
who’s tracking the immigrants that aren’t processed? Not all of them are processed. Do they walk with vaccines cards? This is a real problem.
Jaytee said:
who’s tracking the immigrants that aren’t processed? Not all of them are processed. Do they walk with vaccines cards? This is a real problem.
How many aren't processed? My understanding is that most people arriving with school-aged children are picked up by border patrol. Asylum seekers (and seeking asylum is legal, let's recall) often cross the border and seek out border patrol to turn themselves in and request asylum.
I'd imagine that the process of enrolling children in schools will vary depending on the local school district, but given that vaccinations are requires in most (all?) public school districts, I'd be surprised if there aren't processes in place to get arriving children the needed vaccinations.
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
Jaytee said:
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
You're in MTierney territory by repeating these talking points.
Jaytee said:
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
1. Migrants have been coming here for decades.
2. No measles outbreaks have ever been tied to them.
3. Outbreaks are always tied to unvaccinated children who are citizens.
do you get it?
of course not.
Jaytee said:
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
Unless you can actually point to instances of outbreaks traced to migrants, what you're saying here is fearmongering. And unless Trump is promising some kind of vaccination campaign, then his appeal isn't about worry over infectious disease but just plain old anti-migrant animus.
Also, I'll note that this question of vaccination status of people moving here from abroad is a good reason to support worldwide vaccination campaigns. Among the list of destructive things the CIA has historically done is run fake vaccination programs, something that endangers us all.
Jaytee said:
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
fyi:
Immigrants Make America Stronger and Richer
About that recent success: It has taken a while, but many observers are finally acknowledging that the United States has done extraordinarily well at recovering from the effects of the Covid-19 pandemic. Inflation has faded away in much of the world, but the United States stands out for its ability to combine disinflation with vigorous economic growth. And one key to that performance has been rapid growth in the U.S. labor force, which has risen by 2.9 million since the eve of the pandemic four years ago.
How much of that growth was due to foreign-born workers? All of it. The native-born labor force declined slightly over the past four years, reflecting an aging population, while we added three million foreign-born workers.
drummerboy said:
Jaytee said:
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
1. Migrants have been coming here for decades.
2. No measles outbreaks have ever been tied to them.
3. Outbreaks are always tied to unvaccinated children who are citizens.
do you get it?
of course not.
typically measles is brought here by unvaccinated residents who visit other countries and bring the virus back. Maybe we should deny passports to unvaccinated people.
before anyone comes back and tells me I'm some sort of boot-licking freedom-hater for suggesting that I'll point out what should be obvious -- I'm being facetious. Meaning, not seriously suggesting that.
ml1 says:; "typically measles is brought here by unvaccinated residents who visit other countries and bring the virus back. Maybe we should deny passports to unvaccinated people.
"before anyone comes back and tells me I'm some sort of boot-licking freedom-hater for suggesting that I'll point out what should be obvious -- I'm being facetious. Meaning, not seriously suggesting that."
Why would that necessarily be facetious? Proof of vaccination is already needed for US citizens on return from countries where, eg, yellow fever is present. No reason not to extend that requirement to measles if it's found that would be important to public health.
mjc said:
ml1 says:; "typically measles is brought here by unvaccinated residents who visit other countries and bring the virus back. Maybe we should deny passports to unvaccinated people.
"before anyone comes back and tells me I'm some sort of boot-licking freedom-hater for suggesting that I'll point out what should be obvious -- I'm being facetious. Meaning, not seriously suggesting that."
Why would that necessarily be facetious? Proof of vaccination is already needed for US citizens on return from countries where, eg, yellow fever is present. No reason not to extend that requirement to measles if it's found that would be important to public health.
that would be different from denying someone a passport in the first place if they aren't vaccinated for measles.
Oops, true, i missed that, but certainly can be handled through travel document requirements short of denying passport.
PVW said:
Jaytee said:
But a lot of people don’t get processed. A whole lot. Adults can spread measles too. And it’s not just measles we have to worry about. That’s why trump can still generate so much support, because liberals are busy worrying about these poor people and poor kids. I don’t see any of them looking like the starving refugees they claim to be. They’re coming here to work and send money back home. Period! You see the children and think why is this mother doing this, well the fathers are already here and they’re being reunited. The whole thing is organized, the father borrowed the money to pay for the journey, he gets here, gets a construction job or a restaurant job and sends money every week to pay the loan and feed his kids until they can leave too. Why so many single men coming over the wall? The Venezuelan groups arriving now are not paying the coyotes to bring them, they’re walking in groups of thousands from Colombia right through to Mexico. Safety in numbers.
Unless you can actually point to instances of outbreaks traced to migrants, what you're saying here is fearmongering. And unless Trump is promising some kind of vaccination campaign, then his appeal isn't about worry over infectious disease but just plain old anti-migrant animus.
Also, I'll note that this question of vaccination status of people moving here from abroad is a good reason to support worldwide vaccination campaigns. Among the list of destructive things the CIA has historically done is run fake vaccination programs, something that endangers us all.
That's not the only fear mongering on this thread. Too bad theirs not a vaccine that prevents people from being afraid of their own shadow. .
In my opinion, safe effective vaccines sell themselves. What we've seen in the last few years though was federal, state & local bureaucrats, politicians, the corporate media, push unproven experimental treatments as safe and effective. In fact, the claims were that these treatments were so effective that those who received these treatments would no longer need to worry about the disease. We were told that those who didn't receive the treatment not only would get sick and die, but would cause other people to die.
There were some problems with these claims. The testing did not show any of this. They didn't even test if they would prevent transmission. The fact is that these treatments came with quite a few risks and they maybe had a transient benefit to a small number of people.
So, what happened? People were set against one another(again, due to fear). The Pharmaceutical companies made enormous amounts of $$ and paid off the politicians and the corporate media. Any alternative treatments were demonized. They tried to silence anyone who questioned their narrative. They even painted people who wondered if the virus lab in Wuhan could have been the source as tin foil hat wearing crazy people.
OF course, anyone with any sense knows that all the claims they made were false. And then you wonder why people don't want to listen to them any longer? I expect public health has an uphill battle for at least a generation. And rightfully so.
ml1 said:
mjc said:
ml1 says:; "typically measles is brought here by unvaccinated residents who visit other countries and bring the virus back. Maybe we should deny passports to unvaccinated people.
"before anyone comes back and tells me I'm some sort of boot-licking freedom-hater for suggesting that I'll point out what should be obvious -- I'm being facetious. Meaning, not seriously suggesting that."
Why would that necessarily be facetious? Proof of vaccination is already needed for US citizens on return from countries where, eg, yellow fever is present. No reason not to extend that requirement to measles if it's found that would be important to public health.
that would be different from denying someone a passport in the first place if they aren't vaccinated for measles.
At the same time unvaccinated people were pouring over the border, they wouldn't let the greatest tennis player in the world play here.
terp said:
That's not the only fear mongering on this thread. Too bad theirs not a vaccine that prevents people from being afraid of their own shadow. .
In my opinion, safe effective vaccines sell themselves.
Is the measles vaccine safe and effective?
safe effective vaccines, i.e. all of the ones currently offered, obviously can't sell themselves when grifters and other sorts of liars manage to sell anti-vax nonsense. We are a gullible people and too many people find it profitable to exploit that weakness. We've got one running for president ferchrissakes. Sorry, two of them, as Trump has come out as anti-vax. (he recently speechified that he would propose to withhold federal funds from schools requiring vaccinations) We've got one as the damn surgeon general of Florida. Anti-vaxxers are rampant in the Republican leadership positions around the country.
drummerboy said:
safe effective vaccines, i.e. all of the ones currently offered, obviously can't sell themselves when grifters and other sorts of liars manage to sell anti-vax nonsense.
I don't think there is any vaccine that doesn't have some group of people who oppose it. Since, per terp, safe and effective vaccines sell themselves, and there are no vaccines lacking opposition, does this mean terp believes there are no safe and effective vaccines?
I’m cross-posting here something I wrote elsewhere; it’s more appropriate here anyway.
Someone has to be in the large-scale ‘experiments’ for population health. I’m a fluoride test baby, and I’m glad of it - have most of my own strong teeth with very few cavities at age 67 years. And I’m a Salk sugar-cube vaccine test kid; also had measles twice with very little effect, and Rubella twice like a mere sniffle, so natural immunity to those virii which is helpful since I’m allergic to MMR (the preservative in it). I also can’t have tetanus shots.
My MCAS means that any medications delivered by injection have to be antihistamines, 10% meds dose, wait an hour then the rest, wait an hour, then more antihistamines. Yep, even my B12 injection, or flu shot. Yet most people can just rock on up and bare their arms, then go about their day - unless they’re needlephobes in which case more care is taken to reassure them.
It’s interesting, what makes medical ‘common sense’, isn’t it?? And the data is gathered and refined?
PVW said:
terp said:
That's not the only fear mongering on this thread. Too bad theirs not a vaccine that prevents people from being afraid of their own shadow. .
In my opinion, safe effective vaccines sell themselves.
Is the measles vaccine safe and effective?
Do you think the Covid vaccines were as safe and effective as we were told?
terp said:
Do you think the Covid vaccines were as safe and effective as we were told?
Not sure who the "we" is, as you and I seem to have heard quite different things. They weren't as effective as you were told. They were as effective as I expected based on the folks I was following.
terp said:
PVW said:
terp said:
That's not the only fear mongering on this thread. Too bad theirs not a vaccine that prevents people from being afraid of their own shadow. .
In my opinion, safe effective vaccines sell themselves.
Is the measles vaccine safe and effective?
Do you think the Covid vaccines were as safe and effective as we were told?
absolutely
do you think they weren't?
which tinfoil hat theory have you bought into? sudden-death? clots? myocarditis? DNA? RNA? gene therapy?
who's your guy? John Campbell? Bret Weinstein? Steve Kirsch? RFK Jr?
or is it all of the above?
Young men were at elevated risk of myocarditis from the COVID vaccines
But you know what was even more of a risk for young men developing myocarditis?
Being infected with COVID
the only mis-step regarding vax info that I saw was early on, regarding how effective it was regarding transmission. but I haven't seen any evidence at all that it was a deliberate attempt at misinfo.
Terp, did you catch the news from Germany about this man?
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-68477735
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(24)00134-8/fulltext
Apparently, he’s quite well and fully functional. He was investigated for fraud about his claims, but the investigation was dropped for lack of evidence.
PVW said:
terp said:
Do you think the Covid vaccines were as safe and effective as we were told?
Not sure who the "we" is, as you and I seem to have heard quite different things. They weren't as effective as you were told. They were as effective as I expected based on the folks I was following.
the serious illness and death rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated people tells us just about all we need to know about the effectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccines.
Personally, the effectiveness of the COVID vaccines reminded me of how amazing vaccine technology is. It made me realize I should get a flu shot every year. And get the shingles and RSV vaccinations.
And next up is pneumonia.
I'm the first in line for just about any vaccination. And not because I'm a "boot licker." It's because I'm someone who doesn't want to get a serious illness if I can prevent it with a simple, safe, and effective injection.
PVW said:
terp said:
Do you think the Covid vaccines were as safe and effective as we were told?
Not sure who the "we" is, as you and I seem to have heard quite different things. They weren't as effective as you were told. They were as effective as I expected based on the folks I was following.
Here's a post of mine from when the vaccines came out, referencing articles from before the vaccines came out noting that we should expect breakthrough infections:
Let me get this straight. I just want to understand this. The prevailing opinion here is that its totally fine and even justice to fine Trump just short of a half a billion dollars for a victimless crime.
This same group holds the opinion that vaccines that we were told were effective enough to provide herd immunity if only everyone would get it. They then brow beat everyone who was hesitant and even had a slur for them(Damn Antivaxxer!) People were fired. Nurses who were in hospitals during the height of the pandemic and thus contracted the disease were fired for not getting the vaccine. They had to smear people. They doctored video of Joe Rogan and tried to smear him because one of the treatments he took was "horse paste." We were purposefully misled about the origin of the disease.
And they made billions of dollars. The most profitable drugs in history. They are shielded from liability. These people closed schools for like 2 years. People lost their businesses.
And you give them EVERY benefit of the doubt.
I will note that one presidential candidate was all over this from the beginning.
This is quite something to watch. Worth all 3 minutes.
— Son of Liberty (@1765sol) February 26, 2024
As the whole Covid train wreck began to unfold, Kennedy made these PREDICTIONS about Fauci, Gates and the vax rollout BEFORE it happened.
He knew EXACTLY what was up. pic.twitter.com/q4ObNUg9vz
Another aspect that I think messed with people's expectations was the arrival of omicron. It was different enough that the results we saw when the vaccines first came out didn't hold as well with the new variant. That shouldn't have been shocking, necessarily -- mutations are what viruses do, especially this one, especially early on -- but I think that really threw people for a loop.
ml1 said:
Young men were at elevated risk of myocarditis from the COVID vaccines
But you know what was even more of a risk for young men developing myocarditis?
Being infected with COVID
I'm not convinced that is true. But that little factoid would be much more awesome if the vaccine prevented one from getting Covid.
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Terp said everyone who is worried about contracting measles "should" get vaccinated. So he's saying that everyone "should."
Does "should" imply a mandate? I suspect, long before we get to that, terp will object to my reading of his position and deny that he really means "everyone." And, I don't really know how to respond to that as that implies an unbridgeable gap around basic understanding of how infectious diseases work.