War in the Middle East
I hope sanity rules
Just heard a member of Congress on NPR explaining that we need to hit Iran hard because “in that part of the world they respect strength,” in case you’re wondering if our foreign policy debates have gotten any less dumb in the last twenty years.
— Matt Duss (@mattduss) January 30, 2024
After having promised Biden that the IDF would switch to a more targeted strategy, Netanyahu is now directing his forces to repeat the mass slaughter they committed in Northern Gaza, in the southern city of Rafa.
How many times does the far right leadership of Israel get to shoot Biden in the back before he stops handing them bullets, artillery shells and bombs?
GoSlugs said:
After having promised Biden that the IDF would switch to a more targeted strategy, Netanyahu is now directing his forces to repeat the mass slaughter they committed in Northern Gaza, in the southern city of Rafa.
How many times does the far right leadership of Israel get to shoot Biden in the back before he stops handing them bullets, artillery shells and bombs?
Given the reality of an upcoming election, what would you have Biden do?
tjohn said:
Given the reality of an upcoming election, what would you have Biden do?
Hard to say. I know you don't believe in letting ethics guide actions but, since it is a lose/lose proposition, maybe he could do the right thing?
His continuing material support for war crimes is killing him with the under 30 vote. They won't vote for Trump but they won't endorse these atrocities either. Hell, I am over 50 and don't think I will endorse these atrocities either.
The fact is that, without a continuing supply of American made ammunition, the slaughter of civilians in Gaza would come to a quick halt.
The shells that are killing Palestinian women and children were made in US factories by US workers and paid for by US taxpayers. All the IDF is doing is delivering them into Palestinian homes, schools and hospitals.
Personally, I would love to see Joe Biden travel to Gaza and tell her (surviving) family members how we don't let ethical questions interfere with our foreign policy.
GoSlugs said:
tjohn said:
Given the reality of an upcoming election, what would you have Biden do?
Hard to say. I know you don't believe in letting ethics guide actions but, since it is a lose/lose proposition, maybe he could do the right thing?
His continuing material support for war crimes is killing him with the under 30 vote. They won't vote for Trump but they won't endorse these atrocities either. Hell, I am over 50 and don't think I will endorse these atrocities either.
The world is a cruel place. What specifically would you have Biden do at this point? I think the only thing he can do is to really get behind a push for a cease fire.
Really, ethics has nothing to do with it. What options does Biden have that will put the situation on track for the better? Israel's operation against Hamas isn't helping, that is for sure.
No ceasefire without a complete release of all the hostages. What bullsiht is this talk of ceasefire?
Jaytee said:
No ceasefire without a complete release of all the hostages. What bullsiht is this talk of ceasefire?
Perhaps because continuing the operation is not improving Israel's position.
Jaytee said:
No ceasefire without a complete release of all the hostages. What bullsiht is this talk of ceasefire?
I have to admit I'm surprised you haven't yet suggested the nuclear option.
Jaytee said:
How about releasing the friggin hostages?
You think murdering six year old girls is going to get the hostages released? It seems to me that it is likely to have the opposite effect.
tjohn said:
The world is a cruel place. What specifically would you have Biden do at this point?
I'm sorry, I thought my post (above) was clear on that question.
Specifically, I would have Biden cut off all support for Israel until they stop committing war crimes. Obviously, this would be a fraught policy, diminishing support for Biden in some quarters, increasing it in others. That would not be a problem though, if Biden combined it with an announcement that he would not be seeking reelection.
Dennis_Seelbach said:
Jaytee said:
No ceasefire without a complete release of all the hostages. What bullsiht is this talk of ceasefire?
I have to admit I'm surprised you haven't yet suggested the nuclear option.
If it wasn't for prevailing winds that would dump fall out on Israeli cities, I suspect Gaza would already be a glowing graveyard. Nukes are definitely the quickest way to kill 2 million people.
GoSlugs said:
tjohn said:
The world is a cruel place. What specifically would you have Biden do at this point?
I'm sorry, I thought my post (above) was clear on that question.
Specifically, I would have Biden cut off all support for Israel until they stop committing war crimes. Obviously, this would be a fraught policy, diminishing support for Biden in some quarters, increasing it in others. That would not be a problem though, if Biden combined it with an announcement that he would not be seeking reelection.
was the last sentence a joke?
What about cutting off all UNRWA funding/services? Blocking all aid that Hamas is using to support its terrorism efforts? Is it just a one-way street? Ever wonder why Egypt sealed its border with Gaza?
Steve said:
What about cutting off all UNRWA funding/services? Blocking all aid that Hamas is using to support its terrorism efforts? Is it just a one-way street? Ever wonder why Egypt sealed its border with Gaza?
So you are saying that inflicting more suffering on Palestinians will lead to peace?
Release the f*^king hostages already and then we will talk about ceasefire and prevent further bloodshed. You pro Palestinian folks are quite silent about the hostages who had nothing to do with this siht! You’re biased and full of hatred for the Israeli people, no need to try and cover it with your sanctimonious rhetoric and caring for the people. Release the damn hostages!
tjohn said:
Steve said:
What about cutting off all UNRWA funding/services? Blocking all aid that Hamas is using to support its terrorism efforts? Is it just a one-way street? Ever wonder why Egypt sealed its border with Gaza?
So you are saying that inflicting more suffering on Palestinians will lead to peace?
are you saying that continued funding of Hamas’ terror operations will lead to peace?
I'm saying that Israel is playing a losing hand and needs to come up with a different approach.
tjohn said:
I'm saying that Israel is playing a losing hand and needs to come up with a different approach.
and what is that approach?
Steve said:
and what is that approach?
my guess is it involves killing a lot less innocent women and children.
drummerboy said:
my guess is it involves killing a lot less innocent women and children.
that’s at bit vague considering Hamas’s approach to using women and children as human shields.
I’m really tired of people saying “do it differently” but who are totally unable to provide an alternative.
Steve said:
that’s at bit vague considering Hamas’s approach to using women and children as human shields.
I’m really tired of people saying “do it differently” but who are totally unable to provide an alternative.
do you really think all of those civilian casualties are "human shields"
Jaytee said:
Release the f*^king hostages already and then we will talk about ceasefire and prevent further bloodshed. You pro Palestinian folks are quite silent about the hostages who had nothing to do with this siht! You’re biased and full of hatred for the Israeli people, no need to try and cover it with your sanctimonious rhetoric and caring for the people. Release the damn hostages!
I agree that the hostages should be released asap. But thinking this will lead to a ceasefire and prevent more bloodshed is naive. Once all hostages are released, Netanyahu will unleash the IDF on Gaza and make what has happened so far look tame.
tjohn said:
I'm saying that Israel is playing a losing hand and needs to come up with a different approach.
Losing hand for Israel, but not necessarily for Netanyahu. And that's the problem.
drummerboy said:
do you really think all of those civilian casualties are "human shields"
Do you really think that if Hamas hadn't broken the ceasefire on October 7, any of this would have happened?
But, again, I refer back to my earlier question which you edited out rather than responding to it.
Steve said:
I’m really tired of people saying “do it differently” but who are totally unable to provide an alternative.
PVW said:
Losing hand for Israel, but not necessarily for Netanyahu. And that's the problem.
Yes, there will never be peace so long as Netanyahu is in power.
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We now find ourselves in a situation where Iran's proxies are, I believe, do a bit of free-lancing and are threatening to push us into direct fighting with Iran. I don't believe that Iran exercises full-control over her various proxy groups.
At this point, I don't have strong opinions about precisely how we should respond. I do feel strongly, however, that domestic politics and posturing should NOT be allowed to force the President's hand - Biden today, someone else tomorrow. Pretty clearly, our worst military decisions have all been rooted in domestic politics. Maybe now is the time to be smarter for the first time ever.
When the out-of-control Japanese military sank USS Panay, the U.S. and Japan found a diplomatic off-ramp. While the current situation is not completely analogous, the handling of the Panay Incident shows that a major escalation is not the only option.
USS Panay incident - Wikipedia