Headline on AOL today:

We are not shooting people who cross the border because feds would charge us with murder

This from a human being?

tomcat said:

Headline on AOL today:

We are not shooting people who cross the border because feds would charge us with murder

This from a human being?

It's easy.

Dehumanize immigrants - rapists, bad hombres, etc.

Then, present them as a threat - poisoning our blood, etc.  see Black Mirror. Men Against Fire - Wikipedia

From there, it's just a small step to shooting them.

I feel like this has happened before somewhere.

Democrats: we need more funding and more resources to adjudicate asylum cases more expeditiously

Republicans: too bad we can't shoot 'em

it's kind of remarkable how the Republicans elect such execrable examples of human beings.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with them?

Not sure where to put this, maybe we need a “civil war” thread? 
I just find this very disturbing.

I hate him so much.

Closer to home, New Jersey's GOP establishment is taking Abbott's side. They're unconscionable and make it impossible to consider any Republican for state-level or Federal office until the party cleans house. 

this is so despicable.

they don't even pretend to be about rule of law anymore.

Too bad there isn't some bipartisan deal on the border.  Oh, that's right, Trump blew that up along with rabid Magas who would rather complain than govern.

I really think Biden needs to go on the TV about this - both to talk about the deal and also the supreme court decision .

It seems like this all could have been avoided if the administration would do their job. 

What does "do their job" mean? 

tjohn said:

tomcat said:

Headline on AOL today:

We are not shooting people who cross the border because feds would charge us with murder

This from a human being?

It's easy.

Dehumanize immigrants - rapists, bad hombres, etc.

Then, present them as a threat - poisoning our blood, etc.  see Black Mirror. Men Against Fire - Wikipedia

From there, it's just a small step to shooting them.

I feel like this has happened before somewhere.

Not the same situation, buy Kyle Rittenhouse is a great example of someone taking the law into their own hands.

Protect our borders. It is a core function of the federal government.  They spend over $6 trillion and don't protect the borders?  The situation has degraded astonishingly in the last 3 years.  

This

terp said:

Protect our borders. It is a core function of the federal government.  They spend over $6 trillion and don't protect the borders?  The situation has degraded astonishingly in the last 3 years.  

was in response to this

nohero said:

What does "do their job" mean?

terp said:

Protect our borders. It is a core function of the federal government.  They spend over $6 trillion and don't protect the borders?  The situation has degraded astonishingly in the last 3 years.  

how has it "degraded astonishingly"?

and how is it Biden's fault?

and do you understand what an "encounter" is?

terp said:

This

terp said:

Protect our borders. It is a core function of the federal government.  They spend over $6 trillion and don't protect the borders?  The situation has degraded astonishingly in the last 3 years.  

was in response to this

nohero said:

What does "do their job" mean?

So, not an actual response, since that was what you were saying before I asked the question. 

I understand if you don't have any details about it beyond the tautological "protect the border by protecting the border" response.

Tucker is ramping it up…

Tucker Carlson, who had hosted the former Fox News prime-time juggernaut “Tucker Carlson Tonight,” had also suggested it was time for civilians to take matters into their own hands.

“It’s unanimous: Everyone in power, from the White House, to the hedge fund managers, to the Supreme Court of the United States, has decided to destroy the country by allowing it to be invaded,” Carlson told his 11 million followers on X (formerly Twitter). “That leaves the population to defend itself. Where are the men of Texas? Why aren’t they protecting their state and the nation?”

drummerboy said:

terp said:

Protect our borders. It is a core function of the federal government.  They spend over $6 trillion and don't protect the borders?  The situation has degraded astonishingly in the last 3 years.  

how has it "degraded astonishingly"?

and how is it Biden's fault?

and do you understand what an "encounter" is?

Who's fault is it? As my post showed, the border was in really good shape when Biden took over.   Opening the border was a priority for the Biden administration.  He paused deportations in his first day of office. 

Who's fault do you think it is? 

terp said:

drummerboy said:

terp said:

Protect our borders. It is a core function of the federal government.  They spend over $6 trillion and don't protect the borders?  The situation has degraded astonishingly in the last 3 years.  

how has it "degraded astonishingly"?

and how is it Biden's fault?

and do you understand what an "encounter" is?

Who's fault is it? As my post showed, the border was in really good shape when Biden took over.   Opening the border was a priority for the Biden administration.  He paused deportations in his first day of office. 

Who's fault do you think it is? 

what post are you talking about?

and I ask again, how has it "degraded astonishingly"? (this requires data)

for example, here's some data, from your pals at cato.

hmmmm

https://www.cato.org/blog/new-data-show-migrants-were-more-likely-be-released-trump-biden

New Data Show Migrants Were More Likely to Be Released by Trump Than Biden

According to new data published last month, the Biden Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has removed a higher percentage of arrested border crossers in its first two years than the Trump DHS did over its last two years. Moreover, migrants were more likely to be released after a border arrest under President Trump than under President Biden.

I want to make sure I understand your argument.  At a time where our border is bleeding migrants to the point where Democratic Mayors of Sanctuary cities are complaining to Biden, you are going to fall back on deportation statistics that show that almost 4 times the number of "encounters" are staying in the country.  

When the states that are the most affected try to stop it, rather than assist, the administration moves to undermine those efforts.   He then wants congress to act, no doubt to try to link that action to funds for a foreign border he seems to care orders of magnitude more about. What has Biden done to remediate the situation?

Some lame statistic is your argument?  This is a crisis. In a crisis you take action to remediate.  The Biden administration has done nothing but let the situation fester. 

yeah, you don't understand.

is it Biden's fault that encounters have increased?

he's deporting people like there's no tomorrow. the system is stretched to the limit - not his fault.

he's basically following all of Trump's border policies, for which he's been roundly criticized by the left.

and what exactly is it that you think he should be doing that he's not? wave a magic wand? has anyone on your side proposed solutions? "closing the border" is not a solution - it's a catch phrase.

you're just buying into hysteria.

terp said:

I want to make sure I understand your argument.  At a time where our border is bleeding migrants to the point where Democratic Mayors of Sanctuary cities are complaining to Biden, you are going to fall back on deportation statistics that show that almost 4 times the number of "encounters" are staying in the country.  

When the states that are the most affected try to stop it, rather than assist, the administration moves to undermine those efforts.   He then wants congress to act, no doubt to try to link that action to funds for a foreign border he seems to care orders of magnitude more about. What has Biden done to remediate the situation?

Some lame statistic is your argument?  This is a crisis. In a crisis you take action to remediate.  The Biden administration has done nothing but let the situation fester. 

Do you understand the math, here? More people are arriving, so even though the Biden administration is doing a better job handling the influx, more people are in the country and have to be processed and dealt with.  They're not going to just disappear like some assumption in an economics thought experiment. 

Bottom line: what Is the preferred alternative to admission/processing - they just starve, or be shot, or drown? 

There was a time when terp and I shared some common ground on the issue of the border. We'll see if that still holds true. It depends on how much we agree on what, exactly, the current problem at the border is.

If the problem is that the situation is currently overly chaotic, then I think we still have a lot of agreement. There are far more people arriving than we are currently set up to handle. This leads to people crossing the border in dangerous conditions, with many dying or getting severely injured. It encourages the growth of organized criminal organizations, who prey on these conditions. It places a lot of stress on communities on both sides of the border, who have to deal with a large number of people with high on needs and short on resources.

If that's the problem, though, then the solution is fairly straightforward, as this is a classic supply and demand or resource allocation problem. There are far more people seeking to cross than there are resources to facilitate crossing, so we should increase our ability to handle the demand. That means more staff at ports of entry. Maybe more ports of entry. More courts and associated personnel for hearing asylum cases. More, and clearer, paths to enter the country legally, and work legally. More transportation from the border region, as it's not really fair or realistic to expect the communities directly near the border to take on the full weight of all the needed work.

But almost none of this will happen. On the Democratic side, I have to say that I've not been very impressed with Biden. He's much better than Trump, but "don't kidnap children" is a pretty low moral bar to clear. I get the sense the immigration and the border is an issue he'd rather just manage rather than actually attempt to solve or improve.

I can go into more detail on that if people really want, but that's not really the driving aspect here, because even if Biden was all-in on the border and immigration as an issue, he couldn't do much. Where would all the resources come from? He'd have to burn an enormous amount of political capital to secure them, and odds are he'd fall short of getting what's necessary.

A big reason for that is that, on the Republican side, it's not actually the chaotic conditions at the border they see as the problem, it's the people at the border they oppose. Look at their language -- "invasion" being a give away. The word "invasion" implies moving into a territory with hostile intent -- that's hardly an appropriate word for women and children, for people fleeing violence in their home countries, or people just looking for work.

You can't "fix" the border so long as available legal avenues are far below demand, and it's very difficult to increase legal avenues so long as so much of our electorate wants less rather than more legal immigration.

I don’t know, but this migration issue is reminiscent of the marielitos during the Carter years. And we know how that worked out for Carter right? 
We are screwed señores 

drummerboy said:

yeah, you don't understand.

is it Biden's fault that encounters have increased?

he's deporting people like there's no tomorrow. the system is stretched to the limit - not his fault.

he's basically following all of Trump's border policies, for which he's been roundly criticized by the left.

and what exactly is it that you think he should be doing that he's not? wave a magic wand? has anyone on your side proposed solutions? "closing the border" is not a solution - it's a catch phrase.

you're just buying into hysteria.

Sure. Look. I'm not against immigration.  In a perfect world we wouldn't even have borders.  The reason we need borders has quite a bit to do w/ a lot of the policies you and others here support.  Take from the rich(though really the working American) and give the poor.  

The influx of immigrants has gotten out of control during the Biden administration.  We can quibble about why that is. But the fact of the matter is that he has done nothing to address it.  Even if I buy into your claim that "he's basically following all of Trump's border policies", the idea that the same policy that was working when immigration was at a low level for decades is still sufficient after it increases to crisis levels defies logic. 

In October 2023, the foreign born share was the highest in history.   Base on the Census Bureau's current population survey:

• In October 2023, the CPS shows that 15 percent of the U.S. population is now foreign-born — higher than any U.S. government survey or census has ever recorded.
• The 49.5 million foreign-born residents (legal and illegal) in October 2023 is also a new record high.
• Since President Biden took office in January 2021, the foreign-born population has grown by 4.5 million — larger than the individual populations of 25 U.S. states.
• Based on our prior estimates of illegal immigrants, more than half (2.5 million) of the 4.5 million increase in the foreign-born population since January 2021 is likely due to illegal immigration. If adjusted for those missed by the survey, the increase would be larger.
• The 4.5 million increase overall and the 2.5 million increase in illegal immigrants are both net figures. The number of new arrivals was significantly higher, but was offset by outmigration and natural mortality among the foreign-born already here.
• The foreign-born population has grown on average by 137,000 a month since President Biden took office, compared to 42,000 a month during Trump’s presidency before Covid-19 hit, and 68,000 a month during President Obama’s two terms.
• The scale of immigration is so high that it appears to have made the new Census Bureau population projections, published on November 9 of this year, obsolete. The bureau projected that the foreign-born share was not supposed to hit 15 percent until 2033.
• The largest percentage increases since January 2021 are for immigrants from South America (up 28 percent); Central America (up 25 percent); Sub-Saharan Africa (up 21 percent); the Caribbean (up 20 percent); and the Middle East (up 14 percent).
• Immigrants from all of Latin America increased by 2.9 million since January 2021, accounting for 63 percent of the total increase in the foreign-born.
• While a large share of the recent foreign-born growth is due to illegal immigration, legal immigrants still account for three-fourths of the total foreign-born population.

To put this in perspective, the percentage of foreign-born Americans is higher than as the "Great Wave" of immigration at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries.  

Regarding enforcement, it is down dramatically.  From the ICE 2022 Annual Report:

PVW said:

There was a time when terp and I shared some common ground on the issue of the border. We'll see if that still holds true. It depends on how much we agree on what, exactly, the current problem at the border is.

If the problem is that the situation is currently overly chaotic, then I think we still have a lot of agreement. There are far more people arriving than we are currently set up to handle. This leads to people crossing the border in dangerous conditions, with many dying or getting severely injured. It encourages the growth of organized criminal organizations, who prey on these conditions. It places a lot of stress on communities on both sides of the border, who have to deal with a large number of people with high on needs and short on resources.

If that's the problem, though, then the solution is fairly straightforward, as this is a classic supply and demand or resource allocation problem. There are far more people seeking to cross than there are resources to facilitate crossing, so we should increase our ability to handle the demand. That means more staff at ports of entry. Maybe more ports of entry. More courts and associated personnel for hearing asylum cases. More, and clearer, paths to enter the country legally, and work legally. More transportation from the border region, as it's not really fair or realistic to expect the communities directly near the border to take on the full weight of all the needed work.

But almost none of this will happen. On the Democratic side, I have to say that I've not been very impressed with Biden. He's much better than Trump, but "don't kidnap children" is a pretty low moral bar to clear. I get the sense the immigration and the border is an issue he'd rather just manage rather than actually attempt to solve or improve.

I can go into more detail on that if people really want, but that's not really the driving aspect here, because even if Biden was all-in on the border and immigration as an issue, he couldn't do much. Where would all the resources come from? He'd have to burn an enormous amount of political capital to secure them, and odds are he'd fall short of getting what's necessary.

A big reason for that is that, on the Republican side, it's not actually the chaotic conditions at the border they see as the problem, it's the people at the border they oppose. Look at their language -- "invasion" being a give away. The word "invasion" implies moving into a territory with hostile intent -- that's hardly an appropriate word for women and children, for people fleeing violence in their home countries, or people just looking for work.

You can't "fix" the border so long as available legal avenues are far below demand, and it's very difficult to increase legal avenues so long as so much of our electorate wants less rather than more legal immigration.

In principle, I think we probably agree on a lot.  However, I do not think it is wise to allow unvetted immigration to proceed at the current rates.  We are at crisis levels, and we need to take dramatic steps to stop/disincentivize this behavior.  

terp said:

Sure. Look. I'm not against immigration.  In a perfect world we wouldn't even have borders.  The reason we need borders has quite a bit to do w/ a lot of the policies you and others here support.  Take from the rich(though really the working American) and give the poor.  

The influx of immigrants has gotten out of control during the Biden administration.  We can quibble about why that is. But the fact of the matter is that he has done nothing to address it.  Even if I buy into your claim that "he's basically following all of Trump's border policies", the idea that the same policy that was working when immigration was at a low level for decades is still sufficient after it increases to crisis levels defies logic. 

In October 2023, the foreign born share was the highest in history.   Base on the Census Bureau's current population survey:

• In October 2023, the CPS shows that 15 percent of the U.S. population is now foreign-born — higher than any U.S. government survey or census has ever recorded.
• The 49.5 million foreign-born residents (legal and illegal) in October 2023 is also a new record high.
• Since President Biden took office in January 2021, the foreign-born population has grown by 4.5 million — larger than the individual populations of 25 U.S. states.
• Based on our prior estimates of illegal immigrants, more than half (2.5 million) of the 4.5 million increase in the foreign-born population since January 2021 is likely due to illegal immigration. If adjusted for those missed by the survey, the increase would be larger.
• The 4.5 million increase overall and the 2.5 million increase in illegal immigrants are both net figures. The number of new arrivals was significantly higher, but was offset by outmigration and natural mortality among the foreign-born already here.
• The foreign-born population has grown on average by 137,000 a month since President Biden took office, compared to 42,000 a month during Trump’s presidency before Covid-19 hit, and 68,000 a month during President Obama’s two terms.
• The scale of immigration is so high that it appears to have made the new Census Bureau population projections, published on November 9 of this year, obsolete. The bureau projected that the foreign-born share was not supposed to hit 15 percent until 2033.
• The largest percentage increases since January 2021 are for immigrants from South America (up 28 percent); Central America (up 25 percent); Sub-Saharan Africa (up 21 percent); the Caribbean (up 20 percent); and the Middle East (up 14 percent).
• Immigrants from all of Latin America increased by 2.9 million since January 2021, accounting for 63 percent of the total increase in the foreign-born.
• While a large share of the recent foreign-born growth is due to illegal immigration, legal immigrants still account for three-fourths of the total foreign-born population.

To put this in perspective, the percentage of foreign-born Americans is higher than as the "Great Wave" of immigration at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries.  

Regarding enforcement, it is down dramatically.  From the ICE 2022 Annual Report:

lordy lordy lordy

you think people are trying to get into the country because of the massive wealth redistribution policies of the US government?

LMAO

are you kidding? these people are coming here to WORK so that you can have fresh strawberries year round and your dishes get washed at the restaurant.

what a ridiculous assertion.

I ask again - what do you think Biden should be doing that he isn't doing right now?

your list of scary numbers don't really mean much. (from cis.org no less. there reason for being is to scare people about immigration. seems like it's worked on you.) is 15% a high number? I don't know. do you? what's too high? isn't it a fact that we face a worker shortage and we actually need increased immigration?

drummerboy said:

terp said:

Sure. Look. I'm not against immigration.  In a perfect world we wouldn't even have borders.  The reason we need borders has quite a bit to do w/ a lot of the policies you and others here support.  Take from the rich(though really the working American) and give the poor.  

The influx of immigrants has gotten out of control during the Biden administration.  We can quibble about why that is. But the fact of the matter is that he has done nothing to address it.  Even if I buy into your claim that "he's basically following all of Trump's border policies", the idea that the same policy that was working when immigration was at a low level for decades is still sufficient after it increases to crisis levels defies logic. 

In October 2023, the foreign born share was the highest in history.   Base on the Census Bureau's current population survey:

• In October 2023, the CPS shows that 15 percent of the U.S. population is now foreign-born — higher than any U.S. government survey or census has ever recorded.
• The 49.5 million foreign-born residents (legal and illegal) in October 2023 is also a new record high.
• Since President Biden took office in January 2021, the foreign-born population has grown by 4.5 million — larger than the individual populations of 25 U.S. states.
• Based on our prior estimates of illegal immigrants, more than half (2.5 million) of the 4.5 million increase in the foreign-born population since January 2021 is likely due to illegal immigration. If adjusted for those missed by the survey, the increase would be larger.
• The 4.5 million increase overall and the 2.5 million increase in illegal immigrants are both net figures. The number of new arrivals was significantly higher, but was offset by outmigration and natural mortality among the foreign-born already here.
• The foreign-born population has grown on average by 137,000 a month since President Biden took office, compared to 42,000 a month during Trump’s presidency before Covid-19 hit, and 68,000 a month during President Obama’s two terms.
• The scale of immigration is so high that it appears to have made the new Census Bureau population projections, published on November 9 of this year, obsolete. The bureau projected that the foreign-born share was not supposed to hit 15 percent until 2033.
• The largest percentage increases since January 2021 are for immigrants from South America (up 28 percent); Central America (up 25 percent); Sub-Saharan Africa (up 21 percent); the Caribbean (up 20 percent); and the Middle East (up 14 percent).
• Immigrants from all of Latin America increased by 2.9 million since January 2021, accounting for 63 percent of the total increase in the foreign-born.
• While a large share of the recent foreign-born growth is due to illegal immigration, legal immigrants still account for three-fourths of the total foreign-born population.

To put this in perspective, the percentage of foreign-born Americans is higher than as the "Great Wave" of immigration at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries.  

Regarding enforcement, it is down dramatically.  From the ICE 2022 Annual Report:

lordy lordy lordy

you think people are trying to get into the country because of the massive wealth redistribution policies of the US government?

LMAO

are you kidding? these people are coming here to WORK so that you can have fresh strawberries year round and your dishes get washed at the restaurant.

what a ridiculous assertion.

I ask again - what do you think Biden should be doing that he isn't doing right now?

your list of scary numbers don't really mean much. (from cis.org no less. there reason for being is to scare people about immigration. seems like it's worked on you.) is 15% a high number? I don't know. do you? what's too high? isn't it a fact that we face a worker shortage and we actually need increased immigration?

That is not the argument I'm making. I'm making the argument that one problem is that the public services you support cannot withstand these levels of immigration.  

I knew you would try to wave the argument off because of CIS.  Its a cheap move. CIS did not make those numbers up.  

Regarding what Biden should do:

• Fast track deportations
• Work with, rather than against border state governments to secure the border
• Mobilize additional people to patrol the borders.  
• Put pressure on Mexico to stem the tide before people get to our borders
• Figure out where the $$ is coming from to get these people to the border.  These people are coming from all over the place