New Bob Woodward book - “War”
mrincredible said:
There are a dozen or more potential headlines in the article. CNN made a choice.
It sounds like there’s something for everyone in this book. Do you think Putin would use nukes in Ukraine? Apparently he has considered it. Do you think Biden is too cozy with Netanyahu? It doesn’t sound that way.
It’s quite eye-opening about how Biden comports himself behind the scenes. From the article, my summary is Biden busts his **** to stay steady, calm and diplomatic in public, then cuts loose with his staff later on.
Obviously the book itself will have a lot more detail than what CNN has highlighted. I’m not sure this will be the October surprise because a) it seems to be largely about Biden, not Harris and b) if you don’t already think Trump cozied up to Putin then a book by Bob Woodward won’t convince you.
So anyway, lots of stories about Joe being a normal human being behind the scenes. And one story about Trump doing Putin a big secret favor during the pandemic.
The secret has been outed on Deadline Whitehouse with Nicole Wallace and for those who enjoy Lawrence O'Donnell, Bob Woodward is his guest Monday at 10.
You mean the secret shipment of ventilators to Putin? What about the secret phone calls to Putin after he left the White House?
This man should never ever be allowed back in the White House. Who knows what he’s given to Putin!!
"Former President Donald Trump has spoken with Russian President Vladimir Putin as many as seven times since leaving the White House, according to reporting from a new book by journalist Bob Woodward.
The conversations cover a period before and after Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine, a NATO ally the Biden administration has spent billions of dollars to support.
Woodward's book, titled "War," raises new questions about the relationship between Trump and Putin, a top U.S. adversary, one month before the Nov. 5 election between Trump, the 2024 Republican nominee, and Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris.
While he was still president, Trump secretly shipped Putin COVID-19 testing machines when such testing was rare, Woodward reports in the book, a copy of which was obtained by USA TODAY in advance of an Oct. 15 release."
I’ll be interested to see how much play this book gets. It seems like both sides (and Stein) could get some mileage out of it.
mrincredible said:
I’ll be interested to see how much play this book gets. It seems like both sides (and Stein) could get some mileage out of it.
Woodward is on Lawrence O'Donnell's Last Word on Monday.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4923741-trump-putin-covid-testing/
"The Kremlin confirmed that former President Trump while in office sent Russian President Vladimir Putin COVID-19 testing devices during the height of the pandemic, as was revealed in a new book by journalist Bob Woodward, Bloomberg reported.
Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday that the tests had been sent but he also denied the book’s claims that the two leaders had spoken by phone several times since Trump left office, Bloomberg reported.
“We also sent equipment at the beginning of the pandemic,” Peskov said in a written response to the news site when asked about the book. “But about the phone calls — it’s not true.”
Woodward’s book, “War,” detailed how Trump in 2020 sent Abbott COVID-19 testing devices to Putin and kept the delivery quiet at the Russian leader’s request, according to CNN.
Steven Cheung, the communications director for Trump’s presidential election campaign, denied the book’s claims, calling them “made up stories” and “not true.”"
What I would find equally hilarious and horrifying is if the Kremlin had a guy who would get on the phone with Trump and pretend to be Putin. Like a GRU or SVR agent who would ply him for information. I don’t think Trump as a private citizen would have any clue or any way to know he was talking to an intelligence officer. So Peskov could be telling the truth.
mrincredible said:
What I would find equally hilarious and horrifying is if the Kremlin had a guy who would get on the phone with Trump and pretend to be Putin. Like a GRU or SVR agent who would ply him for information. I don’t think Trump as a private citizen would have any clue or any way to know he was talking to an intelligence officer. So Peskov could be telling the truth.
Imagine the people who still think this whole Russia connection is fake, but would rather believe trump’s BS ramblings… like china is shooting us with hurricanes from a humongous gun…and we’re supposed to listen attentively to them…
Jaytee said:
Imagine the people who still think this whole Russia connection is fake, but would rather believe trump’s BS ramblings… like china is shooting us with hurricanes from a humongous gun…and we’re supposed to listen attentively to them…
Jonathan Chait had a good take on this very subject yesterday
Donald Trump Sure Seems to Collude With Putin a Lot
It’s still happening!
Robert Mueller’s inability to prove a criminal conspiracy between Donald Trump’s campaign and Russia is one of the most significantly misinterpreted facts in recent history. The lack of a conspiracy charge demonstrates that there is a dearth of laws designed to stop collusion between presidential campaigns and hostile foreign powers. (As Mueller testified, “We did not address ‘collusion,’ which is not a legal term.”) It further showed the difficulty of prosecuting a boss who is careful not to allow notes or incriminating evidence in his presence, especially when the lieutenants involved in the plot (Paul Manafort, Roger Stone) refuse to flip on him because he dangles pardons. If Mafia bosses had the pardon power, they wouldn’t be prosecuted very often either.
What the episode did not demonstrate, despite Trump’s insistent claims, was that the Russia scandal was a giant hoax. It was a huge scandal, evidence for which continues to accumulate.
shh. don't tell nan or paul
So Mr. "Art of the Deal" sent Putin two Covid test devices that he so desperately wanted, and Trump got nothing in exchange?
nohero said:
So Mr. "Art of the Deal" sent Putin two Covid test devices that he so desperately wanted, and Trump got nothing in exchange?
I thought I read somewhere that Russia sent us ventilators or some such equipment. Or at least Russia is claiming they did.
drummerboy said:
nohero said:
So Mr. "Art of the Deal" sent Putin two Covid test devices that he so desperately wanted, and Trump got nothing in exchange?
I thought I read somewhere that Russia sent us ventilators or some such equipment. Or at least Russia is claiming they did.
Had not heard about those, so I looked it up. Such a deal.
"Russian-made ventilators now under investigation for causing deaths in Russia were not authorized by U.S. health regulators before the same model was sent to New York and New Jersey at the height of their coronavirus outbreaks, Reuters has learned."
Exclusive: Russian ventilators reached U.S. states without FDA oversight | Reuters
The article is an interesting read for sure. I don’t see anything that indicates it was a straight-up deal for the US to get 45 ventilators in exchange for Putin getting 2 Abbott testing machines for his own personal use. It seems like some clarity along those lines would be helpful.
mrincredible said:
The article is an interesting read for sure. I don’t see anything that indicates it was a straight-up deal for the US to get 45 ventilators in exchange for Putin getting 2 Abbott testing machines for his own personal use. It seems like some clarity along those lines would be helpful.
The part where Putin gets the sought-after testing machines was apparently not public knowledge at the time (even if the two were related, which isn't addressed either).
Jaytee said:
mrincredible said:
What I would find equally hilarious and horrifying is if the Kremlin had a guy who would get on the phone with Trump and pretend to be Putin. Like a GRU or SVR agent who would ply him for information. I don’t think Trump as a private citizen would have any clue or any way to know he was talking to an intelligence officer. So Peskov could be telling the truth.
Imagine the people who still think this whole Russia connection is fake, but would rather believe trump’s BS ramblings… like china is shooting us with hurricanes from a humongous gun…and we’re supposed to listen attentively to them…
Russiagate was a hoax. Trump having a relationship with Russia is a normal president thing. Sending Covid supplies between countries is called diplomacy. That's what normal countries do so they don't end up in stupid avoidable wars.
Frankly this book sounds like a pile of BS. Does it provide evidence for all these fantastical claims? Sounds like it's playing to it's core audience the way you think the GRU could play to Trump.
nan said:
Russiagate was a hoax.
You love to say this. I will ask you a yes or no question. Do you think Russia had an official effort to damage Hilary Clinton’s campaign and boost Donald Trump’s?
Yes or no answer please. Then you can ask me a yes or no question.
nan said:
Russiagate was a hoax. Trump having a relationship with Russia is a normal president thing. Sending Covid supplies between countries is called diplomacy. That's what normal countries do so they don't end up in stupid avoidable wars.
What you call one country annihilating another country that's not in imminent danger? And lead to hundreds of thousands of dead young soldiers with no end in sight? Is that a normal country thing? and then hold phony referendums to claim land?
jamie said:
nan said:
Russiagate was a hoax. Trump having a relationship with Russia is a normal president thing. Sending Covid supplies between countries is called diplomacy. That's what normal countries do so they don't end up in stupid avoidable wars.
What you call one country annihilating another country that's not in imminent danger? And lead to hundreds of thousands of dead young soldiers with no end in sight? Is that a normal country thing? and then hold phony referendums to claim land?
So, if I answer this I will be yelled at for turning this thread into being about Ukraine when you are the one who brought it up. If you read the Putin thread, you will find a good response to these questions, if you are actually interested in that, which you are not.
But, to give you a hint, remember when I mentioned diplomacy? That's been missing in this administration and thus this very avoidable war has been devastating.
Since she won't answer me, someone should ask nan exactly what she means by russiahoax. What, exactly, was the hoax?
Because I can pretty much guarantee we're not talking about the same thing.
I think there is a fair discussion to be had about the fact that some people’s expectations run a little wild when the media reports on certain things.
For instance, starting in 2016 and moving forward it became clear that a group in Russia was using social media to try to influence American voters. That influence was pretty clearly designed to benefit Donald Trump. Moreover evidence started to emerge about possible contacts between those Russians and members of the Trump campaign. Also questions about whether the Russian government, and Putin specifically, were directly involved in this.
I think a lot of people took that narrative and tried to very publicly draw a lot of conclusions about Donald Trump’s direct culpability in all this. Then when all the investigation was complete, people were dismissive of the end results. They’d been reading for months about a video of Donald Trump in a Moscow hotel getting peed on by Russian prostitutes while Vladimir Putin sat nearby and planted fake Clinton emails on Anthony Weiner’s laptop then sending it to James Comey via FedEx in October 2016. So when the actual results of investigation came out, of course it was disappointing, and it allowed some people to say it was all a hoax.
This has had the unfortunate effect that any information which comes out about Trump and Russia gets filed under the same “Russiagate was a hoax!” banner. If Trump had Abbott testing machines sent to Putin for his personal use, that should not have been kept a secret. If he wanted to make a case that it was in the interest of the United States to help a foreign government manage a dangerous pandemic, they should have openly said so. I can spin it: If Putin had died of COVID that could have been very destabilizing. Boom. People would have gotten mad but it would be over.
Also, a former President having private phone calls with a foreign leader, especially Russia, is not okay. Trump is in possession of all kinds of sensitive information in his head. And, according to articles about the book, he asked to be left in private to have those conversations. Nobody from the US other than Trump knows what he said to Putin. It doesn’t matter what they talked about … the conversations should not have been private.
So we end up with headlines that oversell the facts, and pundits speculating on TV and online. And a real problem gets dismissed because it doesn’t live up the the hype.
mrincredible said:
Also, a former President having private phone calls with a foreign leader, especially Russia, is not okay. Trump is in possession of all kinds of sensitive information in his head. And according to articles about the book he asked to be left in private to have those conversations. Nobody from the US other than Trump knows what he said to Putin. It doesn’t matter what they talked about … the conversations should not have been private.
It's "Yes, I was alone in the hotel room with the porn actress but nothing happened" all over again.
mrincredible said:
I think there is a fair discussion to be had about the fact that some people’s expectations run a little wild when the media reports on certain things.
For instance, starting in 2016 and moving forward it became clear that a group in Russia was using social media to try to influence American voters. That influence was pretty clearly designed to benefit Donald Trump. Moreover evidence started to emerge about possible contacts between those Russians and members of the Trump campaign. Also questions about whether the Russian government, and Putin specifically, were directly involved in this.
I think a lot of people took that narrative and tried to very publicly draw a lot of conclusions about Donald Trump’s direct culpability in all this. Then when all the investigation was complete, people were dismissive of the end results. They’d been reading for months about a video of Donald Trump in a Moscow hotel getting peed on by Russian prostitutes while Vladimir Putin sat nearby and planted fake Clinton emails on Anthony Weiner’s laptop then sending it to James Comey via FedEx in October 2016. So when the actual results of investigation came out, of course it was disappointing, and it allowed some people to say it was all a hoax.
This has had the unfortunate effect that any information which comes out about Trump and Russia gets filed under the same “Russiagate was a hoax!” banner. If Trump had Abbott testing machines sent to Putin for his personal use, that should not have been kept a secret. If he wanted to make a case that it was in the interest of the United States to help a foreign government manage a dangerous pandemic, they should have openly said so. I can spin it: If Putin had died of COVID that could have been very destabilizing. Boom. People would have gotten mad but it would be over.
Also, a former President having private phone calls with a foreign leader, especially Russia, is not okay. Trump is in possession of all kinds of sensitive information in his head. And, according to articles about the book, he asked to be left in private to have those conversations. Nobody from the US other than Trump knows what he said to Putin. It doesn’t matter what they talked about … the conversations should not have been private.
So we end up with headlines that oversell the facts, and pundits speculating on TV and online. And a real problem gets dismissed because it doesn’t live up the the hype.
For most of us, I think the sequence of events that got us focused on Russian involvement in the elections was:
Trump's statement at a rally. It is important to remember we had all been surprised by the release of the video of Trump's "you can grab them by the _____" and thought that would end him. Hillary's emails turned the page.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Was Russia listening, after all?
In a July 27, 2016, speech, then-candidate Donald Trump called on Russian hackers to find emails from Hillary Clinton, his Democratic opponent in the U.S. presidential campaign.
“Russia, if you’re listening,” Trump said, “I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.”
Hours later, the Main Intelligence Directorate in Moscow appeared to heed the call — targeting Clinton’s personal office and hitting more than 70 other Clinton campaign accounts. That’s according to a grand jury indictment Friday charging 12 Russian military intelligence officers with hacking into the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party as part of a sweeping conspiracy by the Kremlin to meddle in the 2016 U.S. election.
The indictment says July 27 was the first time Clinton’s personal office was targeted.
Morganna said:
For most of us, I think the sequence of events that got us focused on Russian involvement in the elections was:
Trump's statement at a rally. It is important to remember we had all been surprised by the release of the video of Trump's "you can grab them by the _____" and thought that would end him. Hillary's emails turned the page.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Was Russia listening, after all?
In a July 27, 2016, speech, then-candidate Donald Trump called on Russian hackers to find emails from Hillary Clinton, his Democratic opponent in the U.S. presidential campaign.
“Russia, if you’re listening,” Trump said, “I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.”
Hours later, the Main Intelligence Directorate in Moscow appeared to heed the call — targeting Clinton’s personal office and hitting more than 70 other Clinton campaign accounts. That’s according to a grand jury indictment Friday charging 12 Russian military intelligence officers with hacking into the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party as part of a sweeping conspiracy by the Kremlin to meddle in the 2016 U.S. election.
The indictment says July 27 was the first time Clinton’s personal office was targeted.
I think that that’s the kind of thing that gets lost in the sauce of all the hype. There was real activity by Russians to influence the outcome of the election. but so many people were waiting for a smoking gun tying Trump to Putin in all of this, the general narrative is that it was a nothing burger. It was a perfectly good burger, it just didn’t have a slice of orange cheese on top.
Not to change the subject, but it sounds like there’s some interesting information in this book about the nature of the relationship between Biden and Netanyahu. It sounds like Biden has done everything possible diplomatically to try to rain in the Israeli response to October 7. Including directly, engaging him on a personal level. I wonder how that is going to affect peoples opinions about the Biden administration relative to war in Gaza.
mrincredible said:
Not to change the subject, but it sounds like there’s some interesting information in this book about the nature of the relationship between Biden and Netanyahu. It sounds like Biden has done everything possible diplomatically to try to rain in the Israeli response to October 7. Including directly, engaging him on a personal level. I wonder how that is going to affect peoples opinions about the Biden administration relative to war in Gaza.
Unless Biden waves a magic wand and makes Bibi stop, it's not going to change a lot of minds. The fact that Bibi can't stop without endangering his ruling coalition (which depends on right wing hardliners), not to mention his freedom from jail, isn't taken into consideration when Biden is criticized.
nohero said:
mrincredible said:
Not to change the subject, but it sounds like there’s some interesting information in this book about the nature of the relationship between Biden and Netanyahu. It sounds like Biden has done everything possible diplomatically to try to rain in the Israeli response to October 7. Including directly, engaging him on a personal level. I wonder how that is going to affect peoples opinions about the Biden administration relative to war in Gaza.
Unless Biden waves a magic wand and makes Bibi stop, it's not going to change a lot of minds. The fact that Bibi can't stop without endangering his ruling coalition (which depends on right wing hardliners), not to mention his freedom from jail, isn't taken into consideration when Biden is criticized.
Complicated by the fact that this struggle is rather existential for Israel.
tjohn said:
Complicated by the fact that this struggle is rather existential for Israel.
Not to go off on a tangent about that conflict, but there are plenty of Israeli critics, including military, of Bibi's strategy.
I think the revelations from the book are pretty illuminating as far as the conflict goes. Biden and his administration know that Israel is under a near-perpetual existential threat. And that they are one of the USA’s most important allies. A good part of Israel’s strength stems from the very public support of the US.
Biden is in a difficult position because he understands the nature of our relationship with Israel. But he is also highly aware of the horrible toll that’s being taken by Netanyahu’s response. It sounds like behind the scenes he is imploring Netanyahu to scale back the response, stop acting like a rogue nation and ultimately isolating themselves in the world.
So I think the book reveals someone who’s trying to walk the fine line between reining in and betraying a close ally. I’m not sure anyone else sees it like that.
mrincredible said:
I think there is a fair discussion to be had about the fact that some people’s expectations run a little wild when the media reports on certain things.
For instance, starting in 2016 and moving forward it became clear that a group in Russia was using social media to try to influence American voters. That influence was pretty clearly designed to benefit Donald Trump. Moreover evidence started to emerge about possible contacts between those Russians and members of the Trump campaign. Also questions about whether the Russian government, and Putin specifically, were directly involved in this.
I think a lot of people took that narrative and tried to very publicly draw a lot of conclusions about Donald Trump’s direct culpability in all this. Then when all the investigation was complete, people were dismissive of the end results. They’d been reading for months about a video of Donald Trump in a Moscow hotel getting peed on by Russian prostitutes while Vladimir Putin sat nearby and planted fake Clinton emails on Anthony Weiner’s laptop then sending it to James Comey via FedEx in October 2016. So when the actual results of investigation came out, of course it was disappointing, and it allowed some people to say it was all a hoax.
This has had the unfortunate effect that any information which comes out about Trump and Russia gets filed under the same “Russiagate was a hoax!” banner. If Trump had Abbott testing machines sent to Putin for his personal use, that should not have been kept a secret. If he wanted to make a case that it was in the interest of the United States to help a foreign government manage a dangerous pandemic, they should have openly said so. I can spin it: If Putin had died of COVID that could have been very destabilizing. Boom. People would have gotten mad but it would be over.
Also, a former President having private phone calls with a foreign leader, especially Russia, is not okay. Trump is in possession of all kinds of sensitive information in his head. And, according to articles about the book, he asked to be left in private to have those conversations. Nobody from the US other than Trump knows what he said to Putin. It doesn’t matter what they talked about … the conversations should not have been private.
So we end up with headlines that oversell the facts, and pundits speculating on TV and online. And a real problem gets dismissed because it doesn’t live up the the hype.
The group in Russia "influencing" social media was a joke. They spent little money and most of the posts were after the election and were of a juvenile nature. Posts featured a shirtless Bernie and Jesus talking about masturbation. This group was indicated but when they actually showed up to defend themselves the charges were dropped.
Also, where is the evidence that a former president is having phone calls with a foreign leader? This dumb book?
Russiagate WAS a hoax created by the Democrats to explain Hillary's unbelievable loss to Donald Trump.
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/08/politics/bob-woodward-book-war-joe-biden-putin-netanyahu-trump/index.html
There are a dozen or more potential headlines in the article. CNN made a choice.
It sounds like there’s something for everyone in this book. Do you think Putin would use nukes in Ukraine? Apparently he has considered it. Do you think Biden is too cozy with Netanyahu? It doesn’t sound that way.
It’s quite eye-opening about how Biden comports himself behind the scenes. From the article, my summary is Biden busts his **** to stay steady, calm and diplomatic in public, then cuts loose with his staff later on.
Obviously the book itself will have a lot more detail than what CNN has highlighted. I’m not sure this will be the October surprise because a) it seems to be largely about Biden, not Harris and b) if you don’t already think Trump cozied up to Putin then a book by Bob Woodward won’t convince you.
So anyway, lots of stories about Joe being a normal human being behind the scenes. And one story about Trump doing Putin a big secret favor during the pandemic.