Israel

I know plenty of American Jews who are currently rallying around the good old "I Support Israel" meme-fest in the last few days.

I am not one of them.   I certainly abhor the bombing going on but Israel owns responsiblity for this latest round of insanity... lock, stock, and barrel.   

When you bully people out of their homes, run around in the streets in mobs targeting Palestinians and beat them, destroy their businesses, and mock them about placing bullets in their heads, you have crossed the line completely.   There is no easy way to say it but a wide swath of  Israelis in the last few days have turned into the Nazis on Kristallnacht.   Their conduct is beyond shameful and any American Jew who condones this ugliness by immediately skipping to outrage over bombing...needs to get their humanity checked.   

It didn't need to be like this.   The bombs hitting Tel Aviv - and the no doubt over the top response - was ALL caused by Israel.  All of it.

No doubt there will be some sort of rally in NYC coming up shortly asking for support for Israel.   I won't be there.   

this is an interesting post. I was just talking to my son about how we don't talk much about Israel on MOL anymore, partly because the pro-Israel people used to throw out charges of antisemitism willy-nilly at any criticism of Israel and it got very tiresome.

Sbenois, while I'm not lumping you in with that group specifically, because my memory is fuzzy, I do remember you as one who would voice strong support for Israel under what I think were very similar circumstances to the current ones.

Has something changed for you? Or do you just think the current situation is very different from past ones?

Or is my memory faulty?

Yes, this is very different.  I have watched too many on the scene videos showing that Israeli THUGS are out of control in their own streets attacking their neighbors.    There is a level of ugliness here that can't be excused by anyone with half a brain.  And the sight of Israeli police trying to stop it is suspiciously missing.

It's Germany, 1938.  

So I don't want to hear about Israelis who can't sleep at night because they need to stay in bomb shelters.  That's awful, don't get me wrong.  But I sure as hell would like to see some Israelis recognize that mobs are blatantly and openly attacking Palestinians and their businesses as a matter of daily life at the moment.

And to be honest, there is a huge segment of American Jews who are fostering this environment.    Count me out.

.

fair enough.

I know the Middle-East is complicated. I have family there. And there is extensive trauma and a history that makes peace in ME a phrase that means something that is nearly impossible.

But as Israel indicates it's unlikely to allocate vaccine overages to the Palestinians, it likely pushes more buttons, contributing to the unrest:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-may-toss-millions-of-vaccines-why-wont-it-give-them-to-the-pa-instead/

"I think we have to admit that they are not nice neighbors,” said Efraim Inbar, president of the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security. “We don’t have any moral responsibility to care for neighbors who pay money to terrorists, who turn to international organizations like the ICC in order to fight against us. We are in a war with them. I don’t remember the Americans sending vaccines to the Germans in World War II. I think the demand on Israel to aid its enemies is immoral. I prefer to send them to India, not to the PA,” he continued. “India doesn’t pay terrorists.”

The phrasing is so cold. Israel holds the power to be more humanitarian and share this vaccine overage without losing military ground. But, perhaps unrest was the goal, providing a reason to take out some Hamas leaders.

In Israel, as in the USA, I'm not sure if social media is being used to actually increase the number of people who buy into the us-vs-them divides, or if it's increasing the exposure/power and brazenness of those who have always thought that way.

wow. Inbar is a real f***head. How much influence does he have in Israel?

(off to google...)

ETA: yikes. He's a biggie. Funny - he has no wikipedia entry, though his organization does.

drummerboy said:

wow. Inbar is a real f***head. How much influence does he have in Israel?

(off to google...)

ETA: yikes. He's a biggie. Funny - he has no wikipedia entry, though his organization does.

 Do you mean Itmar Ben-Gvir?  

"Police Commissioner Kobi Shabtai has told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that extreme-right MK Itamar Ben Gvir is responsible for ongoing riots in Jewish-Arab cities, Israeli TV reported Thursday.

During a briefing, Shabtai said that every time police appear to be getting an area under control, Ben Gvir, the Kahanist member of the Religious Zionism party, shows up to fan the flames, Channel 12 and Channel 13 news both reported."

“The person who is responsible for this intifada is Itamar Ben Gvir. It started with the Lehava protest at Damascus Gate,” Shabtai said, referring to far-right demonstrations around Jerusalem’s Old City. “It continued with provocations in Sheikh Jarrah, and now he is moving around with Lehava activists.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/police-chief-said-to-blame-far-right-lawmaker-ben-gvir-for-internal-intifada/

Ben-Gvir is a member of Ozma Yehudit, which is the ideological successor to the Kach party, founded by Meir Kahane, which was outlawed by he Israeli government. Lehava is a far-right organization that strictly opposes Jewish assimilation,  objecting to most personal relationships between Jews and non-Jews. 

cramer said:

 Do you mean Itmar Ben-Gvir?  

I'm following this discussion. I think some of us, like me,  who do not delve deeply enough into the topic, have a traditional reaction which assumes Israel is automatically on the right side. It comes from a sympathy formed so many decades ago and perhaps not enough balanced coverage on the topic. I have that reaction. I'm willing to listen to any information and try to keep an open mind. Maybe the conversation will spark more in depth discussion. I would like to see more coverage in the news as well. And I'm ready to do more reading. I accept the fact that I have a bias. 

Morganna said:

I'm following this discussion. I think some of us, like me,  who do not delve deeply enough into the topic, have a traditional reaction which assumes Israel is automatically on the right side. It comes from a sympathy formed so many decades ago and perhaps not enough balanced coverage on the topic. I have that reaction. I'm willing to listen to any information and try to keep an open mind. Maybe the conversation will spark more in depth discussion. I would like to see more coverage in the news as well. And I'm ready to do more reading. I accept the fact that I have a bias. 

 this is a bit long, but I found it to be very informative.

I almost didn't open this thread.

I was pleasantly surprised. Thank you, sbenois

drummerboy said:

 this is a bit long, but I found it to be very informative.

 Thanks.

I read half last night. Good information in the section on Israel. I made a mental note to research a few of the names that I was unfamiliar with. The assessment of the US stance was exactly what I have concluded and explains the lack of coverage. The section on Palestine was clear. I'm wondering if names are being considered for Biden's due appointment.

I'm going to search for the name of an old HBO documentary that I had shown to my students. It was about the attempt of an Israeli mother to meet with a Palestinian mother after both daughters died in a suicide bombing carried out by the Palestinian girl. I was collecting  documentaries on a variety of topics for them to chose as a senior project.

Back to reading.

Biden is dropping the ball on this one

The state of Israel is a **** disgrace. They are apartheid all over again. Stop sending them $4b a year.

We should drone some Israeli settlements for a few weeks. See what it's like to be punished by a bully.  Call ahead first, so they can get out a few hours in advance, naturally.

^ Illegal settlements, that is.

You know what's curious? Israel seems to be able to effectively blockade all manner of goods and services from entering Gaza, but somehow Hamas is able to maintain a good supply of rockets.

Now why is that? Why is Israel so incompetent about stopping their entry?

ETA: it appears that the rockets are actually built in Gaza. That still leaves the question of how the materiel gets into Gaza.

https://www.dw.com/en/about-dw/s-30688

Since my previous comment about lack of coverage, we seem to be getting quite a bit of coverage. I've also been tuning in to channel I 24,

Is it considered a fair source? 

channel what? 

drummerboy said:

channel what? 

 It's a cable station, the letter I and then 24. I see broadcasting from Tel Aviv. Maybe just on Optimum's lineup. I wondered if it leaned conservative. I've watched little of it so just wondering  if I'm watching Israel's Fox or MSNBC. 

Morganna said:

drummerboy said:

channel what? 

 It's a cable station, the letter I and then 24. I see broadcasting from Tel Aviv. Maybe just on Optimum's lineup. I wondered if it leaned conservative. I've watched little of it so just wondering  if I'm watching Israel's Fox or MSNBC. 

"In review, the i24 News website presents original news reporting with minimally loaded wording such as this: Microsoft: Iranian hackers targeted a US presidential campaign. i24 News also publishes news from the AFP, which is rated least biased. Editorially, they cover both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and covers USA news with impartiality. When reporting on Center-Right Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu there is a slightly negative tone such as this: Netanyahu considers party primary to shore up leadership, shifts blame from Lapid to Gantz. In general, news reporting is factual, properly sourced, and contains minimal bias.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate i24 News Least Biased based on balanced story selection and minimal editorial bias. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (D. Van Zandt 3/1/2017) Updated (10/4/2019)"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/i24-news/

It also has a website. 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel

And then there's this: 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-riot-victims-kidney-gives-new-lease-of-life-to-arab-woman/

eta: Our 16 year-old grandson, who has Asperger's,  is supposed to go to Israel in June through his camp. I don't know where that stands. 

btw - I'm really piss-d off at the extreme right in Israel. This goes back to the right-wing extremist who killed  Rabin. . 

cramer said:

"In review, the i24 News website presents original news reporting with minimally loaded wording such as this: Microsoft: Iranian hackers targeted a US presidential campaign. i24 News also publishes news from the AFP, which is rated least biased. Editorially, they cover both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and covers USA news with impartiality. When reporting on Center-Right Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu there is a slightly negative tone such as this: Netanyahu considers party primary to shore up leadership, shifts blame from Lapid to Gantz. In general, news reporting is factual, properly sourced, and contains minimal bias.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate i24 News Least Biased based on balanced story selection and minimal editorial bias. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (D. Van Zandt 3/1/2017) Updated (10/4/2019)"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/i24-news/

It also has a website. 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel

 Interesting. Never heard of it before.

cramer said:

And then there's this: 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-riot-victims-kidney-gives-new-lease-of-life-to-arab-woman/

eta: Our 16 year-old grandson, who has Asperger's,  is supposed to go to Israel in June through his camp. I don't know where that stands. 

btw - I'm really piss-d off at the extreme right in Israel. This goes back to the right-wing extremist who killed  Rabin. . 

 Thank you @cramer. Also checking with a close friend  which camp her daughter went to.

My two most interesting art student's had Asperger's. 

cramer said:

"In review, the i24 News website presents original news reporting with minimally loaded wording such as this: Microsoft: Iranian hackers targeted a US presidential campaign. i24 News also publishes news from the AFP, which is rated least biased. Editorially, they cover both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and covers USA news with impartiality. When reporting on Center-Right Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu there is a slightly negative tone such as this: Netanyahu considers party primary to shore up leadership, shifts blame from Lapid to Gantz. In general, news reporting is factual, properly sourced, and contains minimal bias.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate i24 News Least Biased based on balanced story selection and minimal editorial bias. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record. (D. Van Zandt 3/1/2017) Updated (10/4/2019)"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/i24-news/

It also has a website. 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel

 Very helpful. I'll be watching on a regular basis.

Looks like Israel's cabinet has approved a cease fire.

The wave of anti-Semitic physical attacks across the U.S. is sickening, and quite honestly, terrifying.  I don't remember a time in my life when Jews have been so concerned about being attacked. It's happening in Los Angeles, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, Arizona, Utah. What's going on is not anti-Zionism, or  anti-Israel  - it's anti-Semitism. People are being attacked because they're Jews. 

cramer said:

The wave of anti-Semitic physical attacks across the U.S. is sickening, and quite honestly, terrifying.  I don't remember a time in my life when Jews have been so concerned about being attacked. It's happening in Los Angeles, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, Arizona, Utah. What's going on is not anti-Zionism, or  anti-Israel  - it's anti-Semitism. People are being attacked because they're Jews. 

 Is it part of that white supremacy movement? The tiki torch crowd were chanting, and there were horrid anti Semitic statements worn on at least one shirt at the Jan. 6 insurrection. The old Ku Klux Klan dogma. The Neo Nazi jerks.

It is sad and infuriating.